Hedges and Binney on Obama NSA guidelinesbiography. Chris Hedges, whose column is published Mondays on Truthdig, spent nearly two decades as a foreign correspondent in Central America, the Middle East, Africa and the Balkans. He has reported from more than 5. The Christian Science Monitor, National Public Radio, The Dallas Morning News and The New York Times, for which he was a foreign correspondent for 1. ![]() He has written nine books, including . I'm Paul Jay in Baltimore. And this is Reality Asserts Itself. In the next few days, President Obama is apparently going to announce new regulations, perhaps limiting the way the NSA collects everybody's phone records. Now joining us to talk about what they think President Obama should be saying are two men that have been in the midst of this debate. First of all, joining us in the studio is Chris Hedges. He's a Pulitzer Prize- winning journalist, a senior fellow at the Nation Institute, and author of many best- selling books, including Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt. And he writes a regular column for Truthdig. And also joining us is William Binney. He was the former technical director of the World Geopolitical and Military Analysis Reporting Group and a senior NSA cryptomathematician (boy, I've got a lot of words to say to introduce you, William; Cryptomathematician- -I like saying that; I've got to say that a few times) at the NSA. He worked there for over three decades, until he retired after 9/1. ![]() Leak Inquiries Show How Wide a Net. But the account of William E. New York Times expose and FBI investigation. Binney explains that his program. NSA Whistleblower William Binney Tells All. The Program By Laura Poitras August 28, 2012 'New York Times' The Program: The filmmaker Laura Poitras profiles William Binney, a 32-year. ![]() ![]() He's also a whistleblower, having disclosed information to the Defense Department in 2. Trailblazer. And he continues to be an outspoken critic of the NSA. Thank you both for joining us. WILLIAM E. BINNEY, FORMER NSA TECHNICAL DIRECTOR: Thank you. She profiled William Binney. Edward Snowden to Trust 'Citizenfour' Director Laura Poitras. Hedges and Binney on Obama NSA guidelines - Reality Asserts Itself Pt.1 : Chris Hedges and NSA whistle-blower William Binney tell Paul Jay that there should be. The Dallas Morning News and The New York Times. The New York Times, William Binney. Chausiaux Philippe Gargov Ramon Llull Scott Mackie Scott Smith Seeklup Sep Kanvar Shamus Husheer SoSo Limited The Guardian The. National Security Agency whistleblower William Binney explains how the secretive agency runs its pervasive domestic spying apparatus in a new. In a short video called 'The Program,' Binney explains how. 22nd August 2012 NYT Op Docs The filmmaker Laura Poitras profiles William Binney. JAY: So, William, they were framing this discussion from what you might think President Obama should say and/or do, and perhaps it's coming in the next few days. I also know both you and Chris are going to be soon debating at the Oxford Union debate, and you're going to be debating something more or less whether Edward Snowden is a hero or not. But it seems to me maybe the debate more should be: are the people that authorized all this legislation criminals or not? And can President Obama- -and this is a bit of a softball ball question, I know. I promise later I will give these guys a bit of a hard time. But how do you have a new policy if there isn't accountability for a policy that even a federal judge says was unconstitutional? BINNEY: Well, that's exactly right. I mean, I blame all of the mess we're in, in terms of data collection, on U. S. When he pardoned Nixon, what that told every president is that he had a get out of jail free card no matter what he did, and that was the next president. So that meant it could only get worse from there. So I blame that, setting up that condition, on Gerry Ford. But, I mean, what they're doing now is a continuation. It didn't seem to matter what party it is. They're trying to focus on the whistleblower and not the fact of what they're doing and the crimes they're committing. JAY: And just to pick up on the Ford point, certainly President Obama did that in spades by not going after Cheney and Bush for an illegal war in Iraq, illegal torture, illegal rendition. BINNEY: That's correct. I mean, he bought into all the programs that they had started. JAY: Now, you've been quoted as saying this NSA data collection is unconstitutional. So that means it's illegal, which means it's criminal. So who are you accusing? BINNEY: Well, it started- -the core of this started with Bush, Cheney, Hayden, and Tenet as the central organizers of this effort. And that was kind of kept very confined. They called it a covert program, which meant that they- -basically what they wanted to do was to limit knowledge of it by Congress and the courts because they didn't want any interference in what they were doing. So in order to do that, the only thing they could do against Congress is to call it a covert program, which meant they could limit knowledge of it in Congress to the Gang of Eight, which meant the ranking and chairs- -ranking member and chairs of the House and Senate intelligence committee and the majority and minority leaders of the House and Senate. So that made the Gang of Eight. JAY: Now, I'm sure their argument would be, if this had gone public, if there'd been any transparency to this process, there would have been such public outcry, they wouldn't have been able to do it, and that would have jeopardized national security. BINNEY: That's exactly- -well, it wouldn't jeopardize national security at all. JAY: I'm saying that would be their argument. BINNEY: That may be their argument. But they actually tried to do that with Admiral Poindexter in 2. Total Information Awareness going. That was again the idea of collecting all the information they could about individuals inside this country and around the world, which is exactly what they'd already started doing in October 2. So that TIA program was already started, and all they were doing was testing the water to see how the reaction would be in the rest of Congress, who didn't know about it, and around the country, to see what kind of reaction they would get to it. And, of course, they got a violent reaction and they terminated the TIA program, but it was already running, and they kept it going after that internally in NSA. JAY: So that full- spectrum dominance some people have used on data and communication essentially was in place and wasn't really taken apart in any way. BINNEY: That's correct. JAY: And that's illegal. BINNEY: Yes. JAY: So you're talking the- -. BINNEY: I mean, it's unconstitutional. It's getting into the affairs of every citizen of the United States. Under the Fourth Amendment, we have the right to not be spied on in terms of our papers or our affairs. Our emails and phone calls are our affairs. JAY: Chris, the same question. And, again, this is a bit of a softball 'cause I know you're going to agree with my underlying assumption. But in much the same way, if you're going to have a new foreign policy, which we wound up not having, but if there had been one, President Obama, one would have thought, would have had to hold Bush- Cheney accountable for what was illegal and unconstitutional, and instead more or less carried on those policies. Isn't it the same thing here? Doesn't he have to actually start from the point of view of really accepting the criminality of what's going on? CHRIS HEDGES, JOURNALIST, SENIOR FELLOW AT THE NATION INSTITUTE: Well, but he's complicit. I mean, let's be clear. Obama has, in essence, or the Democratic Party, codified the illegalities that were put into place and perpetuated by the Bush- Cheney administration, whether that is warrantless wiretapping, whether that is the preemptive war policy, which under Nuremberg, post- Nuremberg laws is a criminal war of aggression. It's a crime, invading Iraq and Afghanistan. I mean, legally we have no right even to debate the terms of the occupation. So I think what's been so sobering and maybe even frightening about the Obama administration is that we are seeing where real power lies, and it lies within the military intelligence community, the security surveillance state, which no leader, for whatever reason- -cynicism or complicity or opportunism- -is going to defy, whether it is Obama or whether it is Bush. And what we're watching and what we have watched throughout the Obama administration is a kind of inversion of the rule of law, where criminal activity is sanctified and protected by the rewriting of laws, especially after 9/1. And so we can't just talk about the crimes of Bush or the crimes of Cheney, but we have to talk about the crimes of Obama. JAY: And this discussion- -I know you're headed to this debate, and I think it's a good thing you're doing it, but this framing in all the media everywhere- -Snowden: hero or traitor?- -it's all a debate about Snowden. And, frankly, Snowden isn't the issue here. In fact, the Snowden discussion is distracting from- -the debate should be what to do about the criminals who did all of this. HEDGES: Well, that's what the power elite does really well is they frame the discussion. And so- -and we're debating Admiral Dennis Blair, the former director of national intelligence; P. Crowley from the State Department. And that is what they will attempt to do is divert attention from the massive crimes of state, the utter obliteration of our right to privacy. You cannot talk about being free when all of your correspondence is captured and stored, you are monitored, and all of your movements are recorded. Freedom at that point does not exist. And I speak as a reporter who covered the Stasi state in East Germany, this being, of course, something that even the Stasi apparatus could only dream of. The danger is that when states accrue to themselves this kind of power, to essentially have- -to obliterate privacy and have a window into the most personal affairs of every citizen, then at a moment when the state feels threatened, at the flick of a switch the state becomes totalitarian. And there are numerous historical examples that illustrate this, one of the best being the 1. East Germany, when the communist dictatorship realized how unpopular they were, how fragile their hold on power was, and it created this monster, the Stasi internal security apparatus, where, in a country of 1. Stasi employees, which meant that for every 1. East German citizens, there was a Stasi agent assigned to watch over them. And these bureaucracies, these security bureaucracies, without any kind of check, evolved into almost- -you know, it's like a Jarry play or Ionesco, where they're infiltrating stamp groups, as they were in East Germany, of retirees- -I'm not making that up- -because they have to perpetuate themselves. And that's where we are. Edward Snowden's Whistleblower Binney - Business Insider. William. Binney. You. Tube/The. Digitalperipheral. With a video interview released Sunday by The Guardian, we now. Edward Snowden as the whistleblower behind leaks of. NSA spying programs. Laura Poitras for The New York Times. Binney. told me and the cinematographer Kirsten Johnson. Binney explains. how the program he created for foreign intelligence gathering was. He resigned over this in 2. When Tamm started asking questions. He says one. volunteered that .
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